Was Dr Taylor’s comment intended to be intelligent and helpful? Seems more obtuse and thick. Just as the government is being very obtuse and thick about admitting the groundwater is contaminated.

I remember seeing a report - possibly in Zeehan, certainly one of the west coast towns - many years ago, about ‘mysterious’ contamination that could not be solved - turned out the mine tailings had been used to seal the local roads. As the tailings contained a cocktail of heavy metals, the locals were not healthy. But was anything was done as a result of the report? I doubt it.

In the second series of Blackadder Baldrick said I grew “a turnip that looks awfully like a thingy” does this mean that his garden was polluted with heavy metals Pete?  Scientific evidence is used to shout down a pulp mill is simply ignored when in it disproves a case no wonder some of us scratch our heads and wonder just what life will be like when the Greenies get a slice of the action there is one thing for certain their actions and decisions will be hard to predict.

2; I’m sorry Dirty Digger but I must also be being “obtuse and thick” because I can’t make head nor tail of your comment. The fact you mention Greenies makes me assume that you don’t believe there is any problem with Roseberry and that you think that a pulp mill is a wonderful idea for the West Tamar. Possibly to make West Tamar vegetables comparable with West coast vegetables?
Would it be possible for you explain your logic here? That is, assuming my interpretation is somewhere close.

If memory serves the vegetables grown at Lutana in fallout zone of the EZ works were contaminated throughout with certain heavy metals.

If Dr Taylor is unaware of this perhaps he should refer the work undertaken by the University of Tasmania.

Yes Dr Taylor its a Tasmanian reference point for the behavior of heavy metal contaminated soils whenused for vegetable growing.

There may not have been a study at Rosebery but your comments may have been more circumspect if you were kept across local issues by a staff with a corporate memory.

A real leader would say something like ‘I will not tolerate any unnecessary threat to the health of Tasmanian taxpayers.

I will place the full resources of this government to assure the citizens of Rosebery that their environment and their health are protected.

Tasmanian taxpayers deserve no less from those that they pay so handsomely to represent them’

In a recent discussion with a Government official on the subject of poisoned residents in Rosebery I was told “They knew it was a mining town - what do they expect?” There has been a serious double standard applied to the quality of the investigation conducted into heavy metal contamination in Rosebery. A form of health exclusion in the midst of social exclusion.

If the Government had done a thorough investigation in Rosebery similar to those conducted in the ‘90s into heavy metal contamination of the Derwent, particularly Lutana and the Eastern Shore, then the community may have more reason to have confidence in their findings.

The recent research conducted by the Government and Nyrstar to review previous data on heavy metal contamination in Lutana and the Eastern Shore had the advantage of peer review by Prof M. McGloughlin from University of South Australia.

Will the Director of Health Dr Roscoe Taylor, and Director of the EPA Warren Jones, put their Final Report out to peer review?

When we get the answer to this question we might know why thallium and arsenic have been excluded from new conditions contained in the Environmental Protection Notice issued by the EPA to the Rosebery mine in August this year.

We might also know how it was that the Government’s ‘thorough’ investigation failed to find the source of the heavy metal contamination on only three selected properties in Rosebery which has been a mining town for over a century.

Isla there is a perfectly excellent scientific explanation as to why thallium and arsenic would have been excluded.

Neither metal/metalloids (note not Heavy Metals, since there is no such thing !!), would have been included, since the concentrations of such naturally occuring elements are in extremely low concentrations within the region. 

Indeed,if you knew your geology of the region,you would be clearly aware of this.

To give you an indication of this, let me quote from a scientific paper, titled “Lead-Zinc ore concentrator practice by Pasminco Mining - Rosebery, Rosebery,Tas by Naryan I Krishnan, in the book “Australasian Mining and Metallurgy Vol. 1 1993. in which it gives a breakdown of the typical ore (mill feed)for the mine. In respect of typical % values, Zinc is 10%, lead 3.2%, Cu 0.6 %, iron 14 %, aluminium 4 %, sulphur (sulphides) 20% while importantly arsenic 0.13 %, and neither cadmium or thallium are listed since in percentage terms they are at or below the limits of detection. Arsenopyrite in respect of the mineralogy of the ore is listed as a trace element.

Now if you draw the analogy from this, that given these are typical concentrations of the ore mined and concentrated, it is perfectly clear that the typical concentration of these elements you appear to be so hung up on, in the host or background rock of the region are of the order of many magnitudes less. 

So with all due respect, I would suggest you concentrate your efforts better on understanding what is occuring, rather than taking wild stabs in the dark.

The investigations undertaken into the Rosebery situation would have been scientifically planned and carried out. The various reports drafted by well qualified persons and subject to peer review by various very well qualified persons. 

You seriously cannot compare the natural occurances of metals in soil and water in Rosebery to the anthropgenic sources of metal contamination in soil which occurred in Lutana. The Lutana situation was solely due to the company’s historical stockpile management practices over a 80-90 year timeframe (now thankfully resolved). The community subjected to intensive epidemiological and toxicological studies.

What is perhaps happening in Rosebery is more likely to be due to natural springs moving through bedrock, expressing concentrations at the surface in isolated areas in the town, such as at the 3-5 residents homes. That is all.

The illness complaints of the residents needs to be properly medically assessed, which could be if the residents complied with the requests of the health department.  Given that they havnt that ultimately is their problem. Period.

I am afraid while I admire Peter Cundall, his comments are ill informed and misplaced. They certainly cannot be granted as qualifying as scientific evidence.

Roscoe has the same hymnal used by the Spray Drift office.  Both demand that complainants provide a criminal standard of proof that any of their industrial mates has breached any guidelines. In most cases, they rely on their own failure to look for any problems as evidence that none exists. 

John Hayward

John, with all due respect to your conspiracy policy views on government departments, none of your commments address the scientific data that was requested by Isla et al. Nor relates to the topic at hand.

Nice try but perhaps it would be more prudent to offer sensible comments if you have anything practical and/or reputable to make and if not then refrain from doing so, since your comments add nothing to the debate.

Having grown up in northern NSW (yes that’s right another bloody mainlander!) if we went over the border into QLD we had to go through the “tick gates” on reentering.  Livestock and plants were sprayed.  The gates closed years ago but on one of the sites near Tweed Heads a new housing subdivision was built.  Over the years,residents complained about illness and eventually were told that the ground was contaminated and not to eat any homegrown produce. Recently in Cranbourne in Melbourne, also at the site of a new subdivision, residents also complained about feeling sick and funny odours etc and after years of fighting the council and Vic EPA, have finally won a class action against both these bodies for failing to act on the methane leaks (the subdivision was an old rubbish dump).  So you see, Oscar, governments work with developers and industry and really don’t give a **** about ordinary people - why let making money get in the way of doing the right thing by the people.  There are many, many examples in Australia and around the world of such instances and unless residents stand up and fight then they will continue to be ignored.  Good on the people of Rosebery for not being bullied into silence.  If you want to have faith that our State government would act in the human interest, then keep on smoking whatever it is you are on!

Without appearing to be thick ! is there any evidence, anywhere in the world ! been actually documented ! that vegetables take on or do in fact, absorb the properties of suspect soils ?

                    d.d.

To answer Don’s point first since it is a perfectly valid question, the answer is yes to the best of my knowledge on such matters.  However, to qualify such comments, as I understand it this is largely related to root vegies ie. carrots, turnips, parsnips etc, rather than leafy vegies ie. lettuce, spinach etc. Hence the health Dept’s comments on washing leafy veg.

The second point is that in respect of impact on human health as I understand it, it also depends on the concentration of specific metals in the soil as to possibly takeup rates and on the level of consumption of such vegetables grown in such soils. To have an impact you would have to eat an aweful lot of homegrown veg.

There is a third qualifier in this and that is under such circumstances where soils are highly contaminated with metals, vegetables, as per most plants will not grow, since at such high levels this would result in most plants dieing. 

As to how this might possibly relate to situations like Rosebery or Lutana, I don’t think I am qualified or knowledgeable enough on the specifics to comment on that.

Now re Bev’s comments, similarly I can’t comment on her experiences since I have no knowledge of the situations she refers to. Perhaps she is correct but equally so perhaps not.

The one thing I do know, having worked in Industry, governement and with both, I strongly disagree with her assertions of such corruption. This is plainly wrong and misplaced from my experience. Similarly, on the contrary from my experiences, they do actually care about the about ordinary people, since they too (the people working in industry and government)are ordinary people !!!

No one is bullying the residents of Rosebery, for in truth it is but a few people who have got it into their minds that there is an issue. The general populace of Rosebery couldn’t give a S**t from what I can see, since the only people carrying on about all of this apart from the few residents of concern are those who don’t actually live there.

I don’t smoke any substances, nor have ever done so !!! Perhaps you might like to get off your high horse and actually consider the science that I have tried to convey to the readers of the TT. Funnily enough no comments or feedback from the protagonists. Makes you wonder a little.

Yes to 11.

I once had faith in Dr Roscoe Taylor, but since the heavy metal contamination scenario in Rosebery and the denials of the aerial spraying of chemicals having a major effect on water, air etc, I’m afraid I now see him as just another Labor cronie who will say what he is told to say by the big boys in power.

(12)
    Thank you for the info Oscar, i was completely serious in asking the question, and was not taking the mickey,  i too have not partaken of the erb for many moons and have never ridden a horse in my entire life.
            ciao,
                d.d.
(13)
    John !  i would be interested in such info.

#11 - yes, and there is Australian research in this area.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17404699
Heavy metals contamination in vegetables grown in urban and metal smelter contaminated sites in Australia
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
KACHENKO Anthony George (1) ; SINGH Balwant (1) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) Faculty of Agriculture, Food and Natural Resources, Ross Street Building A03, The University of Sydney, New South Wales 2006, AUSTRALIE
and

http://www.bioline.org.br/request?ja07069
Quote
‘Many researchers have shown that some common
vegetables are capable of accumulating high levels of metals from the soil (Garcia et al. 1981, Khan and Frankland 1983, Xiong 1998, Cobb et al. 2000).
Certain species of Brassica (Cabbage) are
hyperaccumulators of heavy metals into the edible
tissues of plant (Xiong 1998). Many people could be at risk of adverse health effects from consuming common market vegetables cultivated in
contaminated soil. Often the condition of the soil is unknown or undocumented; therefore, exposure to toxic levels can occur. Xu and Thornton (1985) suggested that there are health risks from consuming vegetables with elevated heavy metal concentrations.
The populations most affected by heavy metal
toxicity are pregnant women or very young children
(Boon and Soltanpour 1992). Neurological disorders, CNS destruction, and cancers of various body organs are some of the reported effects of heavy metal poisoning (ATSDR 1994a,b, ATSDR 1999a, ATSDR 1999b, ATSDR 2000). Low birth weight and severe mental retardation of newborn children have been reported in some cases where the pregnant mother ingested toxic amounts of a heavy metal through direct or indirect consumption of vegetables (Mahaffey et al. 1981).’

Alison Bleaney

Don -

The premise is that plants absorb all minerals and chemicals from the soil and process them for their needs and in so doing expel the waste as exudation.  The problem with minerals of overabundance or underabundance is, the plant is unable to process the minerals and salts required for its own normal nutrition, hence deformity.

Even heavy irrigation can destroy plants and plant nutrition because all water contains salts, hence the salt remains on the surface or just below as the water is absorbed.  We know the result of plant degradation when they are unable to convert and expel the excess salt taken up from the soil.

Isla, Your hypocrisy is breathtaking! Mr Jones and Dr Taylor, at considerable taxpayer’s expense, did have the findings of their two department’s pier reviewed by an independent expert. You might remember his name, Prof Priestly. You failed to cooperate with Priestly’s investigations then went on to publicly defame him accusing him of being incompetent and in collusion with your imaginary conspiracy of government and industry. Save your conspiracy theories for the labor politicians and gunns or fedrals hotels, stop defaming honest public servants just doing their jobs.
Already significant amounts of our money has been wasted, that could be spent on schools, roads, or hospitals and so on, pandering to your uneducated paranoid ravings while you make your pathetic attempt to force the taxpayer to pay you money for the house that you chose to buy now that you have decided that you don’t really want to live in Rosebery.
You are now damaging the good name of Peter Cudal who is highly respected for his stand on the pulp mill but is now in danger of looking pretty silly by his association with your nonsense.
Get a life!

For many years I was a house painter in Rosebery. 
Often I would be called by an irate client within weeks of completing three coats of paint on their roof. 
I felt like my reputation was at risk so I would usually re-paint at my own expense but I was confused as to why the paint was fading often as I was painting it on.
A neighbour at this time had painted his roof seven times with a dreadful result. 
He then sued an Australian paint manufacturer who tried to correct the problem. 
This was unsuccessful and it became obvious that an airborne corrosive was at work in Rosebery. 
Ultimately I stopped painting in the town and after I was diagnosed with heavy metal poisoning I abandoned Rosebery recently.

If you drive into Rosebery have a look at the roof areas in town.  Then imagine what happens to residents and pets who have high levels of heavy metals in their bodies!
While I was in the process of painting I would break out in Rashes and severe headaches.

What about poor people mowing lawns in Rosebery? who break out in rash’s and get ill ?
Very strong possibility of them breathing arsine gas, that has never been investigated.

Lindsay I can’t comment on the experiences you may have had re painting roofs in Rosebery since it makes no sense in relation to the issues that some people are commenting on regarding contaminated water,or soil.

However, logic dictates for there to be widespread impacts within Rosebery from airborne pollutants then there needs to be data to actually support such assertions. I am not aware of any such data supporting this, nor the collorary that even if this were to occur it could have impacts on the fading of paint.

I am more than happy to talk to an expert in the paint industry I know to see if he has any views on this and post such feedback if you are interested.

Similary and equally so I am also not able to coment on your claims of metals poisoning since I am not privy to your medical records.  However, for this to have occured you would need to have such evidence.  I am, however, aware that the report into the Rosebery situation found no such causal links.  You may wish to disagree but neither you nor I are doctors or toxicologists !!

Who knows about the issue of people mowing lawns but and perhaps you might like to re-consider your opinions, for it is well known that people break out in rashes or display signs of allergies, hay fever etc due to grasses, pollens etc.  And these are all perfectly natural occurrances.

As to the sheer nonsense of trying to associate such things with the potential for arsine gas exposure, from my quick perusal of the online literature, let alone the sheer fact that arsenic arsenopyrite levels in the geology of Rosebery are so low, let alone that you would need to be within a confined space to be exposed to concentrations, as opposed to the wide open space where you simply couldnt be exposed, discounts such a theory re the risk of exposure to such a gas.

(17)

    So John , as a layman i assumed that we humans having digested too much say: VITAMINS !  then the body suposedly just expels the excess, so i would have assumed that plants may well do the same thing!

    On the other hand if we say, ingest arsenic or some equally deadly substance ! it will kill us ! is this not so with plant life ? or is it that plant life builds it up and tolerates it in their systems without dying, and can then pass such on to the consumer ?
              d.d.

Don, in absence of John’s knowledge on such matters, and until he may reply, given you have some sensible and perfectly real questions, what I do know is that yes you are quite correct in at least the case of vitamin C, for the body does precisely that.

What I also understand though in respect of metals is that while the body can and will absorb lead, which is problematic for intellectual growth in children and can cause issues for the elderly, it also relates very much to the level accumulated. I have previously seen in the literature the differing exposure levels that are recommended as being safe and/or not so for humans.  The one thing I am aware of though, is that if not subject to ongoing exposure the body will excrete lead through your urine. 

Metals such as cadmium and mercury as I understand it bio-accumulate, not just in the human body but as well via the food chain in the environment. The typical example quoted when I was a science undergraduate was Minimata disease in Japan, where people became very ill and died?from exposure to high mercury levels in fish consumed.

Similarly exposure to high levels of zinc or copper in foods, such as fish as well as undoubtedly other foods is not conduscive to good health, but at such concentrations where this would be an issue the food would taste aweful. Remembering of couse though that some metals including zinc and iron are important trace elements in the human diet.

Strangely enough i have seen many examples of shellfish living in highly metal contaminated marine sediments, and somehow surviving.

Regarding your questions concerning exposure to high levels of metals in soils, my understanding is that at high concentrations of certain metals, this not only impedes growth rates but at too high levels is lethal to plants.

However, equally so just as some animals can develop tolerances to high concentrations,from memory, I am sure that some plant species similarly can develop immunities to or tolerate high metal concentrations in soils. However, whether this is so in the case of plants that animals including those which humans eat (ie vegies) I don’t have the answers.

Perhaps someone with more specific knowledge of such matters can provide you with more detailed information on this.

According to the National Pollutant Inventory it is estimated that the Rosebery Mine emits 64kg per year of arsenic - this is 86.4% of the total arsenic emitted from metal ore mining in Tasmania.
Oscar - where does this arsenic go?

Don 21 - If we ingest arsenic in a minute proportion it will not kill us, but if we keep ingesting in minute proportions the residual accumulation will kill us as in the arsenic in the tea method of slowly poisoning those who stand in the way. 

Arsenic concentration in plants, its effect on phytomass and its interaction in the cellular structure was not part of my technical duties, but it was for others.

The best reading for you would likely be someone who has either done a paper or a doctorate on the subject ... as in lqma.ifas.ufl.edu/Publication/Singh-09.pdf

Having looked at it I think it will adequately answer your questions and the end result is yes, arsenic does affect plants and plant tissue.

To Oscar and Dr Reason
I find a lot of your comments a little odd! Why on earth are you assuming Isla owns a property in or wishes to benefit financially from the Rosebery issue Oscar?  I recall posting on this forum that we do have Government “proof” of our poisonings.  Surely it must be evident by now that the Governments position may not be either accurate or itself without hypocritical and self serving motives? The comments regarding our motives are uncalled for and rather silly.
Professor Priestley peer revieved his own report? Would that not be a conflict of interest as he was paid to write this report?
Kay Seltitzas
Refugee from Rosebery
THMTFT

Ok here we go once again, firstly in response to #23 Don, you have to understand what the NPI is and how it works.  The figures being reported by industry in the majority of instances are not representative of what actually occurs.

The figures being reported are estimations based of formulas that actually are provided by the commonwealth, rather than calculations based off monitoring data undertaken by industry. Hence in most cases the data is pretty useless.

What I can say is that based off the information in the literature I am aware of, it clearly indicates that arsenic and arsenopyrite levels are very low.  That was my point.

Now as to Kay’s issues #25, I never actually assumed for a moment that Isla was one of the residents. On the contrary she is a blow in to this topic and has her own political agenda.

I would strongly suggest you re-read my posts and appologise for accusing me of that or stating that you were seeking to benefit financially. I would suggest that you are in a better position to comment on your motives.

Re you comment regarding poisoning, sorry but you have not provided any such information and clearly from what has been reported in the press, as based on information provided by the DHHS, Priestly report etc, it has quite clearly stated that there is no evidence to suggest a causal link between what ever health problems you may have and the indications of metal contaminated water or soil. What I have stated is that you should seek a full medical assessment of your condition and seek the appropriate treatment. This would seem most logical to the layperson.

re the issue of Priestly peer reviewing his own report, sorry but that is sheer nonsense. In fact if you could understand what actually would have occured is that he would have been commissioned to peer review the governments information (data, reports of their investigations) and wrote his report on these finding and his knowledge of such matters.

By all means call for a peer review of a peer review by yet another independant expert if you wish but I am not sure you will get a different result to please you.

Oscar,
You state “reports were drafted by well qualified persons and were subject to peer review by various very well qualified persons.”
My question is:
Who were these “very well qualified persons” and what are their qualifications?
Both DHHS & EPA testings show there is A MAJOR PROBLEM in Rosebery with contaminants. Yet you continue to live in denial of this fact while our health deteriates by the day.
I have previously stated I have never asked to be removed from Rosebery & do so again.
Your gross assumption we are tired of this beautiful town & want the taxpayer (or anyone else for that matter) to pay for my relocation is totally flawed.
We followed your recommendation & sought “proper medical treatment”.
Does this mean you got it wrong?
I ask you Oscar; Would you like to have our levels of toxicity or be living in our homes? Or have your child/ren born with these same heavy metals. If this happenned to you or your family I am sure we would hear you shouting about it far & wide.
It is blatantly obvious you’re afraid of the truth (I’m not) & the repercussions of exposing the extremely high levels of contamination in the residents, properties and water of Rosebery.
Shame on you, the DHHS, EPA & the Tasmanian Government for their disregard to the people of Rosebery.
SHAME!!

And now for the William McBride Award ... !

Hang on a second Kris, I have read this entire thread and never once did Oscar suggest or make any such gross assumption that you might like to leave Rosebery.  I would suggest you get your eyes tested if you can’t read clearly !!

As for me, I personally would never choose to live in a mining town, irrespective of where it was located around the world, but that is my choice. 

Having read all of Oscar’s comments which I personally regard as being well balanced I don’t see how you can make such arguments that he is in denial of what you may believe. From my analysis of what he has written, his comments are perfectly well balanced. Simply, because you don’the has tried to present doesn’t mean he is wrong and you are right.

However, I also have read the papers, and seen many of the threads on the TT, watched the TV reports and listed to both sides of the argument, and from where I sit, I too would suggest that there is a lot of hot air and very little substance to your claims. Sorry if you don’t like this but thats my interpretation.

I do clearly remember though that the governement reports were drafted by people from the EPA and given that all the people there would undoubtedly be well qualified academically and have integrity, and similarly the persons in the DHHS who would have drafted their reports are also well qualified academically and well experienced, I think you need to stop blaming them for not finding what you so believe to be true.  As to the peer review as I understand it this was carried out by the No.1 toxicologist in the country, (check his academic background on the net) I would say you really should desist in making assertions which are factually unjustied or can simply not be supported.

I don’t see any evidence of Oscar being afraid of the truth, whereas in fact I do see the opposite with the few residents in Rosebery who cannot accept that perhaps they are wrong !!

Blame, shame etc will get you absolutely no where, and is a waste of time.